Pence fought order to testify, but now is central figure in former boss’s indictment

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Mike Pence fought the Department of Justice in court to try to avoid testifying against his former boss. But in Tuesday’s federal indictment, the former vice president plays a central role in the first criminal charges against Donald Trump that deal with his efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

The 45-page indictment is informed, in part, by contemporaneous notes that Pence kept of their conversations in the days leading up to the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol, as Trump tried to pressure Pence to go along with his desperate—and prosecutors say illegal—scheme to keep the two men in power.

Among the discussions: An episode in which Trump is alleged to have told Pence that he was “too honest” for rejecting Trump’s false claims that Pence had the power to overturn the vote. “Bottom line—won every state by 100,000s of votes,” Trump said in another conversation, according to the indictment.

Pence, who is among a crowded field of Republicans now challenging Trump for the 2024 presidential nomination, has spent much of his nascent campaign defending his decision to defy Trump. He launched his bid with a firm denunciation of his two-time running mate, saying Trump had “demanded I choose between him and our Constitution. Now voters will be faced with the same choice.”

The former Indiana governor was scheduled for a campaign stop Wednesday at the Indiana State Fair to give a speech about his economic plans.

Pence said last month that he did not believe Trump had broken the law in connection with Jan. 6 and has repeatedly questioned the Department of Justice’s motivations for investigating him.

On Tuesday night, he hit anew on his belief that Trump was unfit to serve again.

“Today’s indictment serves as an important reminder: Anyone who puts himself over the Constitution should never be President of the United States,” he said in a statement. “Our country is more important than one man. Our Constitution is more important than any one man’s career.”

Despite his once-prominent position as Trump’s No. 2, Pence has struggled to make progress in his presidential campaign. Many of the former president’s most loyal supporters still blame him for Trump’s loss, believing Trump’s claims that he could have used his ceremonial role overseeing the counting of the Electoral College votes on Jan. 6 to prevent Democrat Joe Biden from becoming president.

Trump critics, on the other hand, fault Pence as being complicit in Trump’s most controversial actions and standing by his side for so many years. Until the insurrection, Pence had been an extraordinarily loyal defender of his former boss.

With just three weeks until the first 2024 GOP presidential debate, it’s unclear if Pence will even qualify to make the stage. He has yet to meet the donor minimum, though he has reached the polling threshold.

In Washington, Pence has refused to testify before the House committee that investigated the Jan. 6 attack, dismissing the probe as politicized. He fought a subpoena demanding he testify before a grand jury, arguing that, because he was serving on Jan. 6 as president of the Senate, he was protected under the Constitution’s “speech or debate” clause from being forced to testify. That provision is intended to protect members of Congress from questioning about official legislative acts.

Pence eventually complied when a judge refused to block his appearance, but said he wouldn’t be forced to answer questions related to his role as Senate president.

Trump’s lawyers had objected, too, citing executive privilege concerns.

Trump’s new indictment outlines his and his allies’ frantic efforts to remain in power. After first trying to persuade state lawmakers to reject certifying Biden’s win, it says, they focused on Jan. 6 and “sought to enlist the Vice President to use his ceremonial role at the certification to fraudulently alter the election results.”

They tried to persuade him to accept slates of fake electors or to reject states’ electoral votes and send them back to state legislatures for further review, the indictment says.

That effort included a series of phone calls in late December and early January, including on Christmas Day.

“You know I don’t think I have the authority to change the outcome,” Pence said during one call with Trump, the indictment says.

In another, on New Year’s Day, Trump berated Pence, telling him, “You’re too honest”—an episode also recounted in Pence’s book “So Help Me God.”

Some Trump claims were viewed as dangerous. During a private meeting on Jan. 5, he “grew frustrated” at Pence and told the then-vice president that he would have to publicly criticize him. Concerned for Pence’s safety, his chief of staff, Marc Short, alerted the head of Pence’s Secret Service detail.

The indictment also outlines how Trump worked to falsely convince his supporters that Pence had the power to overturn the results.

Immediately after their final conversation before the riot, on the morning of Jan. 6, the indictment alleges that Trump revised the speech he was set to give at the Ellipse, “reinserting language that he had personally drafted earlier that morning – falsely claiming that the Vice President had authority to send electoral votes to the states – but that advisors had previously successfully advocated be removed.”

Trump, in his speech, repeated his false claims of election fraud, and again gave false hope to his supporters that Pence had the power to change the outcome.

Not long after, hundreds of Trump’s supporters were slamming through barricades, battling with police and breaking into the Capitol building — some chanting “Hang Mike Pence” as the former vice president and his family were rushed to safety.

And even after the rioters were cleared from the Capitol and Congress reconvened to certify the results, Trump’s allies were still trying to get Pence to intervene, emailing his attorney to urge that he seek further delay by adjourning the session for 10 days.

Pence instead certified the election, finalizing his and Trump’s defeat.

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10 thoughts on “Pence fought order to testify, but now is central figure in former boss’s indictment

  1. TERM LIMITS,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and all this would not have happened for either party. All these career politicians advancing themselves from their government influences has bought them vacation beach houses, board seats where they have no experience and other lavish lifestyles. Its all gone to their heads causing them to believe they are much greater than they should be therefore causing voting weaknesses and much much more. VOTE THEM ALL OUT.

  2. Russell…we already have term limits. Every two years members of the US House of Representatives, and every six years, on a rolling basis, the members of the US Senate, must be reelected. If WE THE PEOPLE don’t think they should hold those offices, we vote them out. We can vote them out because we don’t like how they’ve voted on legislation important to us, or because of their conduct, or because we don’t like the way they comb their hair or the color of their shirts. Or for no reason at all. And, we can vote them out because we think they’ve been there too long.
    So if you want to remove from the Congress individuals whom you and others who agree with you feel should be removed because they’ve been there too long, you may do so. You organize behind your candidates, others will organize behind their candidates, who may or may not be the incumbent, and we’ll have an election. Person with the most votes wins. Sounds pretty American, and democratic, to me…

    Finally, I must admit I’m at a loss as to how Term Limits would have prevented the fraud attempted by Trump and his allies. The President is term limited to two terms (more or less, read the Constitution). Yet this attempted coup still went forward. Often with the backing of Republican Representatives and Senators who are relatively new to their respective seats. I don’t recall seeing Mitch O’Connell, Senator Grassley from Iowa, or any Senator, R or D, with more than 3 terms, backing this effort. Most of the folks I saw standing up for the coup attempt were relatively new, less than 10 years. So I’m not certain how your version of term limits would have helped here. It’s the newbies, the ones who have no sense of their responsibilities as elected leaders, no sense of history, or how to govern, who fed this mess.

    1. Your last point regarding seniority is right, and I’d never thought about it. That same group of senior Republican senators had selective outrage over Trump’s entire term.

      The newer Congresscritters are much more in the Trumpian mode. Which means: they’re scared of him. And his supporters.

    2. Tim – I 95% agree. But if the Political Party won’t back another candidate, its hard to succeed.

  3. David G: Want to check with Dick Lugar on that? Or Liz Cheney? Or Lisa Murkowski? Or the slew of Democratic and Republican House and Senators who will not seek reelection this year because they know they don’t align with their new party base, or with newly gerrymandered districts.
    Yes, it’s hard to succeed. But perhaps that suggests those with the most interest in the tenure, the party and its long term members, see value in that candidate. Perhaps the rising tide of changes in primaries will change some of that, at least in Marion County and selection of judges. But the key concept is the voters ALWAYS have the right to not follow the party. It will take work. It will take funding. It will require dedication. But its all possible. You just have to want it…

  4. So Mike Pence only does the right thing when the law forces him to, even though he’s tried to find any way possible to skirt the law…. I never knew that was a Christian value…..

  5. As I’ve noted in another post regarding Pence, I’m conflicted on the “new” Mike Pence. I met him years ago, back when he was a Catholic Democrat. I know, seems ages ago. about 40 years.

    While I never liked his politics, I thought him a good and decent man. Misguided in his beliefs, especially for abandoning his Democratic positions for those of the evangelical right. But in all a decent man. A man with whom you’d have a beer and talk about the world.

    Then came being Governor, and then VP. Especially the VP part. A complete abandonment of principles to gain control of the Supreme Court. Cannot be reconciled with his Christian beliefs. He behavior did not reflect the Pence he tried to sell us: A Christian, A Conservative, and a Politician, in that order. It became Conservative Politician, and the Christian part was abandoned.

    But I think, and hope, this new Mike Pence is a return to the principled, morals based guy. I hope so, if for no other reason than his own well being.

    Is this “flip flop” a Christian value? If its insincere, no. But if its sincere, then my Catholicism says I should forgive him his trespasses, as I ask others forgiveness of mine.

    So we’ll see. He is on a Quixotic venture, perhaps…running for an office he cannot seriously hope to win…perhaps he feels the need to try to right the wrongs he enabled. I don’t think its an ego thing.

    But, if he’s sincere, then grace and forgiveness will follow him

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